Pete Rose was both a degenerate gambling and someone who had sex with underage girls. Can’t someone be so terribly flawed that we just turn the page? Sorry Cincinnati, but your hometown boy was an awful human being.
I have a better idea: if Rose’s ban ends at death, so too should his eligibility. Let him hover in limbo — or purgatory, if you prefer — for the rest of eternity.
A very provocative article Doug. Coming from a former MLB player carries even more weight. Personally I've been for Rose having a plaque and that plaque noting his transgressions. But trying to write that tight copy (since there are not THAT many words on a HOF plaque) is a big challenge! So thanks for making me think about changing my mind.
Found this: MLB Hall of Fame plaques typically contain around 85 to 90 words, excluding the list of teams the player played for, according to the Montreal Gazette. However, the first HOF class averaged around 36.6 words, while later classes have seen an increase to around 80-100 words, according to Jeremy Lehrman and MLB.com.
Doug, this is a brilliant piece. You make your points so clearly and convincingly. The fact that they mirror my own, long held thoughts, only makes it that much more a rewarding read. Thank you!
I visited Cooperstown with my 12 year old son in October, 2000. It was a memorable father-son journey, beginning with a long train trip from NYC. Because it was October, we had the Hall to ourselves and a small number of others. We spent three full days exploring the displays, learning, taking photos, eating at places with names like The Shortstop Cafe, buying some souvenirs. On the main street of town, the only newspaper available was the late, lamented The National, a daily sports newspaper that Frank DeFord edited. At the end of the day, we grabbed very good deli from a local shop, and went to our motel, where we watched two playoff games - eastern and western time zones. (Later, my son said wryly, "that was a lot of baseball, dad.")
When we visited the Plaque Room, the sense of history was overpowering, and yes, the fact that these players were honoured to be there was palpable. We lingered in front of the plaques of players I knew a lot about, and I schooled my son in some of their stories.
It was a sublime trip.
Yes, the players who obliterated the record books leave a bad taste, to which you allude. I don't really want to hear Bonds' HOF speech, or Clemens, or A-Rod's et al. They forfeited the right to the honour it denotes.
Thanks Terry for that story. I remember my first trip to Cooperstown. I must have been 12 (when you son went) and I still have this crystal clear headshot of Mike Schmidt that I bought. It is so hard to reconcile the power of that place with the darker chapters of our game but I know those chapters are critical to knowing the full story. I tend to think we don’t need to enshrine the darkness. We just need to keep those stories close by as reminders and cautionary tales but also as truth.
Could you imagine those speeches you mentioned? Wow.
Doug. You're writing ability appears to flow as naturally as your athleticism; but I know that both abilities are the product of hard work, determination, and discipline. I look forward to your next installment. Mr. D
Doug, this is the most persuasive case for excluding Pete Rose I have read. I was with Bart Giamatti when he was deciding the Rose case. He told me it was the most difficult decision he had ever had to make. I have always respected that—and now your argument supports his decision.
But since MLB and every other major professional sport has endorsed and promoted online gambling, I have had to try to rationalize Giamatti’s decision. Your article helps, but I am still thinking it through.
An excellent article like always. You are absolutely correct about reverence being something that’s earned. I watched a documentary about Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams last night. Those men had every right to be revered because they along with Robinson carried themselves with class and dignity.
VERY well said, Doug. You are so right about Rose, steroid users and the difference between the HOF including facts/information and inducting with a plaque. I also agree with your points about the past [decades-long] inadequate attention to the Negro Leagues' legacy and with your other points here. Thank you.
Pete Rose was both a degenerate gambling and someone who had sex with underage girls. Can’t someone be so terribly flawed that we just turn the page? Sorry Cincinnati, but your hometown boy was an awful human being.
Doug, you've presented the most coherent case I've seen for voters to deny Rose a posthumous plaque.
Thank you, Doug. A thoughtful, well written piece on a complicated issue.
Thanks Doug for making it clear how he should be included in the history of the game but not the Hall.
Another great essay on character and living one's life honorably. Thank you Doug.
I have a better idea: if Rose’s ban ends at death, so too should his eligibility. Let him hover in limbo — or purgatory, if you prefer — for the rest of eternity.
His lifetime ban may have ended, but his lack of character and lack of integrity will endure forever. Thank you Doug for such an insightful article.
Thanks, Mr. D! Doug
A very provocative article Doug. Coming from a former MLB player carries even more weight. Personally I've been for Rose having a plaque and that plaque noting his transgressions. But trying to write that tight copy (since there are not THAT many words on a HOF plaque) is a big challenge! So thanks for making me think about changing my mind.
Hi Mark! That is an excellent exercise. What could you write?
Thanks Doug. Working on that!
How many words or characters do you get? I think I can have fun with that. :)
Found this: MLB Hall of Fame plaques typically contain around 85 to 90 words, excluding the list of teams the player played for, according to the Montreal Gazette. However, the first HOF class averaged around 36.6 words, while later classes have seen an increase to around 80-100 words, according to Jeremy Lehrman and MLB.com.
Interesting. So there is some flexibility.
I am thinking it might be best to write more than one as they could be all very different!
Doug, this is a brilliant piece. You make your points so clearly and convincingly. The fact that they mirror my own, long held thoughts, only makes it that much more a rewarding read. Thank you!
I visited Cooperstown with my 12 year old son in October, 2000. It was a memorable father-son journey, beginning with a long train trip from NYC. Because it was October, we had the Hall to ourselves and a small number of others. We spent three full days exploring the displays, learning, taking photos, eating at places with names like The Shortstop Cafe, buying some souvenirs. On the main street of town, the only newspaper available was the late, lamented The National, a daily sports newspaper that Frank DeFord edited. At the end of the day, we grabbed very good deli from a local shop, and went to our motel, where we watched two playoff games - eastern and western time zones. (Later, my son said wryly, "that was a lot of baseball, dad.")
When we visited the Plaque Room, the sense of history was overpowering, and yes, the fact that these players were honoured to be there was palpable. We lingered in front of the plaques of players I knew a lot about, and I schooled my son in some of their stories.
It was a sublime trip.
Yes, the players who obliterated the record books leave a bad taste, to which you allude. I don't really want to hear Bonds' HOF speech, or Clemens, or A-Rod's et al. They forfeited the right to the honour it denotes.
Thanks Terry for that story. I remember my first trip to Cooperstown. I must have been 12 (when you son went) and I still have this crystal clear headshot of Mike Schmidt that I bought. It is so hard to reconcile the power of that place with the darker chapters of our game but I know those chapters are critical to knowing the full story. I tend to think we don’t need to enshrine the darkness. We just need to keep those stories close by as reminders and cautionary tales but also as truth.
Could you imagine those speeches you mentioned? Wow.
Doug. You're writing ability appears to flow as naturally as your athleticism; but I know that both abilities are the product of hard work, determination, and discipline. I look forward to your next installment. Mr. D
Correction: Your (not you're). Its hard to write a simple sentence!
Doug, this is the most persuasive case for excluding Pete Rose I have read. I was with Bart Giamatti when he was deciding the Rose case. He told me it was the most difficult decision he had ever had to make. I have always respected that—and now your argument supports his decision.
But since MLB and every other major professional sport has endorsed and promoted online gambling, I have had to try to rationalize Giamatti’s decision. Your article helps, but I am still thinking it through.
Thanks for an excellent read.
An excellent article like always. You are absolutely correct about reverence being something that’s earned. I watched a documentary about Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams last night. Those men had every right to be revered because they along with Robinson carried themselves with class and dignity.
VERY well said, Doug. You are so right about Rose, steroid users and the difference between the HOF including facts/information and inducting with a plaque. I also agree with your points about the past [decades-long] inadequate attention to the Negro Leagues' legacy and with your other points here. Thank you.